With all the places I’ve seen this linked, I find it hard to believe there are no comments. have you been deleting them all?
I’ve deleted nothing at this point.
Mainstream fiction has nothing like the semi-pro, token, non-paying (For the Love) markets the genres have for short fiction. There is the New Yorker at the pro level and that’s pretty much it. Sure there are some academic journals with very narrow audiences. Other than that, there is nothing.
This is just flat out, not true.
Duotrope.com lists 639 mainstream short fiction markets, compared to 209 SF ones. Of those, 39 pay pro rates, which in mainstream means .20 and up, vs. 19 in SF, which pay .05 and up. Then there’s a bajillion semi-pro, token and non-paying markets.
I would guess, off the top of my head, that some people responded to your other post for the same reason that I’m responding to this one. You are spreading misinformation.
You seem very enthusiastic and I wish you luck with your writing career.
My intent was to spread nothing. This is my small personal space where I work out ideas on my own. It is usually read by me, my fiance, a friend in Boston, and my cat. On most days since it’s been up, which is over 2 years now, I’ve had 0 hits. I’m actually quite shocked that anyone would take the time to read anything I had to say here. You are free, of course, to correct any errors you find.
Ms. Kowal, I really love the work of yours that I’ve read so far. Thank you for responding to my post.
Just thought now might be a good time and place to plug some of the awesome lit for-the-luv zines, like Pank, Smokelong Quarterly, Barrelhouse, Monkeybicycle, McSweeney’s Internet Tendency, Keyhole, Konundrum Engine Literary Review, and so on. There are also some much more prestigious ones that are both for-the-love and hard to get into.
Jeff V. recently mentioned Conjunctions and Black Clock as possibly receptive to the right kind of literary spec work. And a bunch of great spec women writers were recently in Tin House.
Personally, I’ve had better reception at the pro lit places—Esquire, Atlantic Monthly, etc.—than at the “semi-pro” academic reviews. I don’t know for sure why that is, though I have my theories.
Colleagues from Iowa had luck with first sales at places like The Missouri Review, Agni, and the unfortunately defunct Absinthe Review.
Hope this isn’t intrusive. I remember the first time people I didn’t know personally started showing up on my livejournal and it freaked me out for a few hours. Then I figured it was one of the wages of a higher profile and went back and deleted all my old posts from college complaining about my professors. 
Best,
Rachel
“So, I ask again, why answer the post?”
It’s the Internet, no? We have lively discussions about Kirk vs Spock.
There’s tons of mainstream fiction semi-pro and token venues. Just a quick search through Duotrope will prove that.
As for getting defensive and personally insulted: nobody said your baby is ugly, and even if they did, big deal. We all get awful responses sometimes.
Comments like “I suggest they get a better agent or publicist or something” along with the “why just not ignore me” are, at best, snarky. The fact that tons of great editors and writers didn’t ignore and commented should prove there is no big conspiracy or divide between pros and semi-pros. They don’t gather in a secret club and laugh about the rest of us, muahaha.
I think the main issue is that many For the Luv markets have no proper editorial screen. So, you can get some really bad fiction in for the luv markets, as well as some good.
When I mean bad, I mean badly edited, badly written, trite or cliche, or bad plotting and characterization.
The semi-pros are better. They have tighter screenings of submissions. The semi-pros are also a small group--there aren’t a lot around. Interzone is by far the most popular and a cultural icon.
Markets that pay nothing--or pay a tolken--are not usually slated because of what I mentioned above.
I have no idea why Scalzi and others are worried about For the Luv markets, as those markets have nothing to do with them (indeed, they are usually places for amateurs and those just having a bit of fun, anyway).
As someone with an MFA, you should be shooting for higher, anyway. Many people in For the Luv markets do not have MFAs. For the Luv are places to have a laugh or test your skills.
The problem in that because For the Luv markets will publish anything, you get false expectations that your work might be good. Every writer needs rejection as much as acceptance. Writers need to hone their craft through trial and error, not continuous acceptances of work that may not be good enough.
Then, of course, comes the most contentious remark I’ll make--that not everyone is a writer. We all have different skills and it is hard to accept that we may not be good at something.
Not everyone is an artist, or scientist, or mechanic.
(For example, I tried for years to be good at math--had tutors and spent lots of cash--but I could never get beyond a certain level. I had to accept that.)
“Why respond at all, especially if you’re a big deal author or editor?”
On the Internet, when you post something critical that names names, the people named are guaranteed to find it, and almost certain to say something. That is the only absolute rule of the Internet.
The problem that I see, Jenn, is that *you* appear to be the one lumping all the semi-pro markets together, and assuming criticism of one is criticism of all.
A savvy writer, even one without so-called “pro” credits, can still be discerning about which semi-pro markets to submit to: who (if they’re print) has actual bookstore distribution, or, at very least, who takes care to have professional layout? Who do reviewers pay attention to? Who has stories that get honorable mentions or reprints in “best of” anthologies? Whose publication gets awards or award nominations?
Those sorts of things are the duty of a small press editor/publisher to pursue if they want to be taken seriously, and if they’re not happening, then you may looking at a market that ain’t worthwhile.
I think people see a discussion that touches a nerve and get involved no matter how much of a nobody the original poster might be, and “for the luv” markets definitely touch a nerve.
Personally, I don’t think they’re a bad thing. Short fiction, if not totally dead, is coughing up blood and having a hard time focusing these days, so seeing the hobby markets pop up and attract newbie writers isn’t a shock. But to others who are pinning their hopes to the idea that there’s still life left in short fiction, they see these amateur/semi-pro magazines as devaluing their work. If there is an army of amateur writers out there willing to give it away for free, why would anyone want to pay for the good stuff… This is the Harlan Ellison argument, and it’s not necessarily wrong, just misplaced considering the state of the market.
The only thing I do take issue with is the idea that there are no semi-pro markets in any other genres. They are in EVERY genre, and in greater numbers than in SF or Mystery. The biggest concentration of “for the luv” markets are in Horror fiction and Lit fiction. Horror fiction pretty much died in the early 90’s and the only thing keeping it moving is the small press and “for the luv” markets. And seriously, you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting four or five semi-pro literary markets. These places exist to cater to MFA students who will graduate in debt, unable to get a job teaching, and with a head full of bad advice and a portfolio full of over-workshopped, dull writing that they’re desperate to “publish” in order to make themselves feel better about their decision to waste time and money by signing up for the biggest college degree scam of the past 40 years.
But that’s a different argument.
In the end, it all comes down to goals. What you want and how serious you are about what you do. These amateur markets that pay very little or nothing and have low standards for acceptance are going to either be irrelevant in a bio or count against you. If, however, all you want is the quick, orgasmic spurt of seminal satisfaction that comes with any acceptance, no matter how irrelevant, then go with the “for the luv” markets. My guess is eventually, once you’ve been at this for a while and realize how meaningless those “publication” credits actually are, you’ll think differently.
Or maybe not.
Next entry: The Outer Limits: The Heist
Previous entry: The Sense of Awe